Writer and humorist Fran Lebowitz shares her thoughts on talent versus luck, her vendetta against hiking, and how she’s made and kept friendships over the years, including with the late Toni Morrison.
Anna Sale: Hey, it’s Anna. Before we get to the new episode, I want to remind you that we have a special series coming out next week…about estrangement. You, our listeners, shared your stories of strain that led to ruptures…in relationships, with communities, even with a set of former values…and you told us, what happened next. Listener 1:After a particularly distressing holiday episode.Thanksgiving she's getting angrier and angrier basically because I said that I needed a break.
Fran is a force, and interviewing her is kind of like tossing a softball her way, and then just watching to seeShe never misses an opportunity to make her audience laugh… even when she’s making fun of them. Instead, she’s supported herself as a professional talker. I first really got to know this side of Fran in Martin Scorsese’s 2010 documentary about her called,Pretend It’s A Citytalked about the writers she spends time with, her opinions on talent versus luck, her vendetta against hiking, and how she’s made and maintained friendships over the years.
Anna Sale: You've said that with your friendship with Toni Morrison, you spoke on the phone nearly every day for 40 years. Was there a pattern in who called whom? And she really became demanding of company. So she would say, “You know, when are you coming up to see me?” I would say, “You know, Toni, I was there like three days ago.” “Well, yeah, well come.” I said, “Toni, I'd love to see you. It takes the whole day, by the way.”
It's horrible to go to a party with another person because then you have to deal with them. Like, “Well, I don't wanna leave now. You wanna leave now? I wanna sit there. I don't wanna sit.” I mean, it's like some horrible momentary marriage , which is better than a real marriage, but still not as good as going to a party by yourself.
So cocktail parties are okay if there's a place to sit, but there's certain places where there's no place to sit at all. Like in museums, there's no place to sit. And I always think, “You invited me here, you should provide me with a seat.” You know? And that Picasso. Fran Lebowitz: It depends. Dinner parties are good, usually. But it can be the worst kind of party cause you're stuck.
Anna Sale: Speaking of talent, I'm curious what your observations have been in the art world, in the literary world, during your time in New York. What do you think is the relationship between talent and ambition? You can be stupid and be very rich, but making money is ruthlessness and love. Love of money. I mean love. We're Americans, you know, we like money, we love a buck. But they love money, you know? They never live well, I mean they live very elaborately. But you never think, “that’s really nice!” And it’s never really nice. It’s just really expensive, that’s not the same thing.
If we did, we would've told people. I would've – by the way, stock up because there's this plague coming. So that was one postponement. But the day after it came out, the first phone call I got about it was from a friend of mine who's a journalist in Dubai, and then someone called me from like Geneva, then LA. So then I realized, you know, that it was all over the world. Yeah. That made a bit of difference.
Fran Lebowitz: No. And there is no more nature in New York than there was before. I mean, I lived for 26 years, two blocks from Central Park. I never went there. I would go there to walk through to get uptown, but, there's certain things people do that I never do, okay? And I have actually been forced to do this, which is how I know about hiking. I actually did this in Alaska, okay? Which has bears in it, okay? So, one thing I don't wanna see are bears. So I was hiking in Alaska. I mean, this was obviously not a trip I paid for, but there was a guy who was a bear guide – that was his profession, so you're not gonna meet him at a party in New York. He could take you bear hunting and you can shoot them or you can just look at them.
So I'm not against nature. All these people who love nature and are going all the time, they're dangerous to nature but not me. I never go there. Anna Sale: Before we move, I want to know about the friend who thought, “Who should I invite for this trip to Alaska?” Who to put this together… “Fran.” Fran Lebowitz: I have spoken at what seems like a million memorial services. I mean, it started during AIDS and like at a certain point I thought, “Is this my profession?” And it's horrible by the way, I think, to speak at memorial services. But I have also been to many. But I haven't been to that many where I haven't spoken because even if I'm not supposed to speak, when I get there, people say, “Oh, would you like to speak?” “No.” it's very hard to say no.
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